Revival and Reformation. What are the roots of the Reformed? What are the routes of the charasmatic?

I think because many of us have stepped away from the roots of the faith if you will, it has brought in some confusion among Christiandom.

That is why we can look to incredible people like Martin Luther and see the message that he had that brought about the reformation of the church. He’s not the only one, many others in church history stood up, and called the church into Reformation.

It wasn’t to bring into the church something that wasn’t there before but to Re- form the church.. bringing back the old and coming back to the roots of the faith.

Revival, diggin up old wells and bringing back to life what was dead or nearly dead.

The revival speaks of the charasmatic and the reformation speaks of tradition in many ways. When the two opperate in unity what you see is a church that begins to opperate the way God intended the church to from the very start.

And of course, I’ve always been taught that people can choose to walk away from salvation, the choice to bend into sin etc and the choice to live a life like King David, not a perfect man but lived a life of repentance. Quick to confess sin and quick to turn away from sin.

It’s been perhaps 10 years since I’ve talked about Calvinism vs Arminiasm. It’s an interesting conversation.

One thing I have to strongly testify to is that the gifts are alive and strong in the church’s who accept the gifts but those who believe it’s just the first century church … I seriously believe that’s theological error on their parts.

I’ve never been taught that the gifts end before Christ’s second coming and have never seen scriptural teaches that affirm that teaching.

And just because gifts lie dorment does not necessarily mean that God intended for that to happen. We really do need to be stewards of what we are given in life whether it’s physical, financial, spiritual whatever… one thing is clear that God does expect for us to be responsible stewards with what He gives us.

Permit me to interject into your dialogue. Some issues have basic starting points, forgive me if in brevity I leave out some key issue. As with allthings, scripture is the key.

As far Ariminiasm, (also called semi- Pelagianism) startw with original sin. Pelagius taught that Adam’s sin effected only Adam. That every person after that was not depraved but innocent and free to obey God as Adam was free from sin. God imputes to men only those acts which they personally perform. That Adam was just a bad example.

Arminius taught that men are essentially sick, that because of Adams transgression, men are destitute of original righteousness, and without divine aid are utterly unable to attain it. Man is not accounted guilty by Adam’s sin – only when men consciously and voluntarily appropriate them does God impute them as sin.

The Classic Reformed View first elaborated by Augustine (so it is the Augustine view). Luther, Calvin and most Reformers (except Zwingli) held this view. God imputes Adam’s sin to immediately to all his posterity (organic unity of the human race). That every creature reproduces “after its kind”. In other words death passed upon all men, because all sinned in Adam. So Rom 5:12-21 would provide direction to show that the phraseology of God’s word shows that the infliction of the penalty is not due to sovereign decree but by way of judicial penalty (v13-18). Hebrews 7:9-10 has the principle of natural headship.

As far as the continuationist vs cessasionists many Godly men are not in complete agreement, but do have respect for the different viewpoints. The Bible does teach in 1 Cor 13 that the gifts will end, but not when they will end. However it does say that some will end before others. It does also have the example of Paul who was able to heal many in the early days of the Church but that later in his travels he had to leave beloved co workers behind because they were ill and he had to instruct Timothy to take some medicine (wine) for his stomach. That much is certain. This of course is a much longer discussion because there is debate over some words/meanings which we don’t have certain resolution, IE when that which is the perfect is come, that which is in part will be done away. Some view the Perfect as the Lord, some view the perfect as the completed word of God for an example. Again, very learned, earnest men disagree on this. So the result is some hold to “sign” gifts still being active and others hold that the “sign” gifts were for the early church only. Again we do know for sure that the sign gifts are certainly not active now the way the were in the times of the early church.

Anyway, I hope this adds to the dialogue. As you can tell I am a reformed cessasionist, but by my conscious as the result of my study.

The third view, no one knows? No one really knows for sure about the other persons salvation. Only that person knows about their inner-man so to speak.

We want to grieve the losses of those who have turned away from the faith… but you really don’t know that perhaps it’s apart of their personal journey with the Lord.

As the case with me. Many people gave up on me. I went through a very dark season in my life and when I needed the support of Christians in my life there was absolutely nobody there.

My faith was strengthened in that time and I came out of that dark season having developed a more intimate relationship with Jesus that changed everything in my life.

So, it’s not an understanding I come to based upon me thinking it’s a humbler position to take. Or even based upon doctrinal teachings. I have that view based upon my own personal experiences. When people thought I walked away from the faith based upon my lifestyle choices they really didn’t see how God began to reveal Himself to me in new ways.

I’m just not quick to give up on people as easily as they gave up on me and just continue to keep the persons eternal security between them and God while trusting even in the midst of doubt, confusion, uncertainty that God is good.

On the topic of perseverance of the saints you have two views: 1) All the saints will persevere and 2) Some of them will and some of them won’t. Both groups claim to know what Scripture says about this. Then you can throw in a third view that says no one knows for sure.

All three views have this in common though: The holders of them all claim to see what Scripture says (or in the case of the third view, doesn’t say) more clearly then the other folks.

So, don’t hold to the third view because it seems humbler – it’s not! Hold it if you think that God doesn’t speak to the topic in Scripture or that if He does He doesn’t do so for the purpose of us understanding Him.

Tim Kellers elephant story is coming to mind now. I think it’s in this sermon. It’s kind of unrelated, but hey I just really like hearing Tim Keller talk. :)

Well, my faith was influenced from faiths ranging from Roman Catholic to Pentecostal from Pentecostal to Roman Catholic and then somewhere in between. It also ranged from the Charasmatic to Conservative, then back to Charasmatic to Extreme charasmatic. I know many people have falsly judged the teachings I’ve listened to as word-faith. The bottom line is that in the experience of some, people have experienced spiritual abuse at the hands of those who’d be more of the extreme charasmatic.

From being baptized and filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues to other charasmatic expressions of worship including dancing with flags. I LOVE the charasmatic but I’m VERY introverted. And today attend a Missionary-Alliance church. The Missionary-Alliance church is kinda sorta like middle ground.

I’ve seen a wide range of expressions and I could find error in all extremes. But I’ve quickly learned that we are quick to judge something as not being from God when it actually is, or should I say when God brings a work of deliverance/healing in a persons life sometimes stuff happens that people are weirded out by but I just believe that stuff happens when two Kingdom’s come crashing together.

As for Calvinism vs Ariminiasm… I’ve gone back and forth with that as well. I’ve come to see God’s grace and his patience with the sinner who has yet to come to faith or return to faith. I’m almost convinced the Prodigal of the faith always returns home. At least, with my own experience, having had a true conversion experience to Christ I could not fully rest until I fully surrendered my life to Christ.

The question I have is this?

Are there people who spend their lives wrestling within this tension but never really truly reckoning with it?

Last but not least…

At least my own reckoning with all this is the fact that only God truly knows the rest of us can debate whether or not a person is once saved always saved. Only God knows and so I just continue to pray that God would bring people into the fullness of their destiny in Christ.