Comments on: A Joint Series Through Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood http://4handsclapping.com/blog/2009/02/a-joint-series-through-recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood/ Surprisingly enough, you only need two forehands to generate this sound. Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:03:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Mark@DR http://4handsclapping.com/blog/2009/02/a-joint-series-through-recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood/comment-page-1/#comment-451 Mark@DR Wed, 25 Feb 2009 04:12:39 +0000 http://4handsclapping.com/blog/?p=868#comment-451 One side of me says, "Yes, yes, Clowney on the Church!!" The other side of me says, "Whoa, guys, let's take one series at a time!" :) One side of me says, “Yes, yes, Clowney on the Church!!” The other side of me says, “Whoa, guys, let’s take one series at a time!” :)

]]> By: Jonathan http://4handsclapping.com/blog/2009/02/a-joint-series-through-recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood/comment-page-1/#comment-450 Jonathan Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:45:39 +0000 http://4handsclapping.com/blog/?p=868#comment-450 Read Edmund Clowney on "The Church". Read Edmund Clowney on “The Church”.

]]> By: dwayne http://4handsclapping.com/blog/2009/02/a-joint-series-through-recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood/comment-page-1/#comment-449 dwayne Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:34:15 +0000 http://4handsclapping.com/blog/?p=868#comment-449 Yes Acts 29 (and myself) do not differentiate between the tiltles\offices of Pastor, Elder or Bishop. After this series on gender I have been thinking about doing another one on "the church." Not sure yet though... Yes Acts 29 (and myself) do not differentiate between the tiltles\offices of Pastor, Elder or Bishop. After this series on gender I have been thinking about doing another one on “the church.” Not sure yet though…

]]> By: Jonathan http://4handsclapping.com/blog/2009/02/a-joint-series-through-recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood/comment-page-1/#comment-448 Jonathan Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:11:24 +0000 http://4handsclapping.com/blog/?p=868#comment-448 Pastor, Elder, Deacon - where Pastor is not just an Elder who does different stuff and has a degree. Some see the Pastor as the Episkopos/Overseer. In the PCA many claim to be 2-office, but in reality we function as 3-office (otherwise, why would we ordain a man who has already been ordained as an Elder when he becomes a Pastor?). If I understand A29 polity, though - you guys are legit two-office, straight up? Short explanation of two/three-office: http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=309 It actually has nothing to do with the number of offices, I guess - but I always like to sneak it in there. I think I over-stated a disagreement with Grudem/Piper as well. I remember thinking that I agreed with much of their principles, but differed in application. Pastor, Elder, Deacon – where Pastor is not just an Elder who does different stuff and has a degree. Some see the Pastor as the Episkopos/Overseer.

In the PCA many claim to be 2-office, but in reality we function as 3-office (otherwise, why would we ordain a man who has already been ordained as an Elder when he becomes a Pastor?). If I understand A29 polity, though – you guys are legit two-office, straight up?

Short explanation of two/three-office: http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=309

It actually has nothing to do with the number of offices, I guess – but I always like to sneak it in there.

I think I over-stated a disagreement with Grudem/Piper as well. I remember thinking that I agreed with much of their principles, but differed in application.

]]> By: Mark Traphagen http://4handsclapping.com/blog/2009/02/a-joint-series-through-recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood/comment-page-1/#comment-447 Mark Traphagen Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:32:18 +0000 http://4handsclapping.com/blog/?p=868#comment-447 To add to Jonathan's bibliography, another excellent resource from the egalitarian side is John Stackhouse's Finally Feminist: A Pragmatic Christian Understanding of Gender (Baker, 2005). (BTW, the "feminist" in the title does NOT refer to political feminism). Stackhouse takes the redemptive-historical approach: full equality is God's ideal, but he has allowed patriarchy when it fit his redemptive purpose (e.g., not hindering the spread of the gospel in the patriarchal Roman culture). Stackhouse argues that the church should move into the egalitarian ideal wherever possible, wherever NOT doing so would now hinder the proclamation of the gospel. To add to Jonathan’s bibliography, another excellent resource from the egalitarian side is John Stackhouse’s Finally Feminist: A Pragmatic Christian Understanding of Gender (Baker, 2005). (BTW, the “feminist” in the title does NOT refer to political feminism).

Stackhouse takes the redemptive-historical approach: full equality is God’s ideal, but he has allowed patriarchy when it fit his redemptive purpose (e.g., not hindering the spread of the gospel in the patriarchal Roman culture). Stackhouse argues that the church should move into the egalitarian ideal wherever possible, wherever NOT doing so would now hinder the proclamation of the gospel.

]]> By: dwayne http://4handsclapping.com/blog/2009/02/a-joint-series-through-recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood/comment-page-1/#comment-446 dwayne Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:24:49 +0000 http://4handsclapping.com/blog/?p=868#comment-446 Jonathan, THREE office? Enlighten me. Chris, I do have to say that am particularly looking forward to your thoughts on this! Jonathan, THREE office? Enlighten me.

Chris, I do have to say that am particularly looking forward to your thoughts on this!

]]> By: Chris Dattilo http://4handsclapping.com/blog/2009/02/a-joint-series-through-recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood/comment-page-1/#comment-445 Chris Dattilo Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:49:40 +0000 http://4handsclapping.com/blog/?p=868#comment-445 You clearly read my mind. I was hoping you would do a blog series on this book. I am a complimentarian, but I think there is much to discuss within and understand. Defining myself as a complimentarian it is often assumed that I'm ready to cover my head and scrub bathrooms:) I too desire to be faithful to scripture as our ultimate authority. Now we just have to figure out what scripture means - no easy task. Looking forward to the next couple of weeks. You clearly read my mind. I was hoping you would do a blog series on this book. I am a complimentarian, but I think there is much to discuss within and understand. Defining myself as a complimentarian it is often assumed that I’m ready to cover my head and scrub bathrooms:)

I too desire to be faithful to scripture as our ultimate authority. Now we just have to figure out what scripture means – no easy task.

Looking forward to the next couple of weeks.

]]> By: Jonathan http://4handsclapping.com/blog/2009/02/a-joint-series-through-recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood/comment-page-1/#comment-444 Jonathan Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:18:39 +0000 http://4handsclapping.com/blog/?p=868#comment-444 Have fun - look forward to seeing your posts. I read a couple of chapters and wasn't overly impressed. I think that Grudem/Piper are too strict and if they had a Reformed (3-office, mind you) understanding of offices/ordination their book would be very different. At least my book would be! The seminary professor who I had on Gender & Ministry was a firm egalitarian of the "redemptive movement hermeneutic" school. If you want to read some work from the egalitarian side - I commend Webb's "Slaves, Women and Homosexuals" and the work of CBE to you. You can get a number of CBE articles free here: http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/free_articles.shtml That recommendation said - I think that women have amazing gifts to offer the church and should be released to pretty much every kind of ministry out there, but I do stop short of full egalitarianism because I don't see it in the Word of God. The exegesis I see from CBE & Webb is stretched. I think the reality is in between Webb & Grudem and as such I guess I'm comfortable calling myself a complimentarian. Have fun – look forward to seeing your posts. I read a couple of chapters and wasn’t overly impressed. I think that Grudem/Piper are too strict and if they had a Reformed (3-office, mind you) understanding of offices/ordination their book would be very different. At least my book would be!

The seminary professor who I had on Gender & Ministry was a firm egalitarian of the “redemptive movement hermeneutic” school. If you want to read some work from the egalitarian side – I commend Webb’s “Slaves, Women and Homosexuals” and the work of CBE to you. You can get a number of CBE articles free here: http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/free_articles.shtml

That recommendation said – I think that women have amazing gifts to offer the church and should be released to pretty much every kind of ministry out there, but I do stop short of full egalitarianism because I don’t see it in the Word of God. The exegesis I see from CBE & Webb is stretched. I think the reality is in between Webb & Grudem and as such I guess I’m comfortable calling myself a complimentarian.

]]> By: dwayne http://4handsclapping.com/blog/2009/02/a-joint-series-through-recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood/comment-page-1/#comment-431 dwayne Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:48:28 +0000 http://4handsclapping.com/blog/?p=868#comment-431 Now that is what I am talking about Mark! I desire to pledge no ultimate allegiance to anyone but God and, to that end, His word. Anyone who wants to help me maintain that desire is welcome and encouraged to participate. Now that is what I am talking about Mark! I desire to pledge no ultimate allegiance to anyone but God and, to that end, His word. Anyone who wants to help me maintain that desire is welcome and encouraged to participate.

]]> By: trappermark http://4handsclapping.com/blog/2009/02/a-joint-series-through-recovering-biblical-manhood-and-womanhood/comment-page-1/#comment-430 trappermark Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:43:46 +0000 http://4handsclapping.com/blog/?p=868#comment-430 Be prepared for what I hope will be some irenic and constructive pushback on this topic. A growing number of evangelicals think that Piper, Grudem et al's "plain meaning" of Scripture is anything but plain, and that it's time to right 2000 years of wrongful oppression of women in the church, just as there came a time to oppose slavery (which also was considered "biblical" for centuries). Looking forward to your series! Be prepared for what I hope will be some irenic and constructive pushback on this topic. A growing number of evangelicals think that Piper, Grudem et al’s “plain meaning” of Scripture is anything but plain, and that it’s time to right 2000 years of wrongful oppression of women in the church, just as there came a time to oppose slavery (which also was considered “biblical” for centuries).

Looking forward to your series!

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